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Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
 
I wouldn't expect the Feds to go out of their way to help. Our type of aviating creates big headaches in trying to squeeze drones into the system. From a commercial use standpoint it'd be easier droning packages to customers if our Great Lakes were all hangar queens. We are very fortunate to be around in the time of Birdmen. A little more than a century before it was a lofty dream. In the future, piloting as we know it will be a nostalgic notion. Flight for no other reason than flight's sake, to be like a bird, to dance on the wind, to be a Great Lakes driver is something special, but don't expect our foolhardy endeavor to be embraced or understood by those that govern us

Be the wing, Bill. 

   
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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
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Joined: 5 years ago
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I am sadly in agreement with Bill.? Enjoy it while we can lads.? We re all dinosaurs.

 

Ranger Mike

 

From: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com [mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 3:12 PM
To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [greatlakesbiplane] Re: Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

 

 

I wouldn't expect the Feds to go out of their way to help. Our type of aviating creates big headaches in trying to squeeze drones into the system. From a commercial use standpoint it'd be easier droning packages to customers if our Great Lakes were all hangar queens. We are very fortunate to be around in the time of Birdmen. A little more than a century before it was a lofty dream. In the future, piloting as we know it will be a nostalgic notion. Flight for no other reason than flight's sake, to be like a bird, to dance on the wind, to be a Great Lakes driver is something special, but don't expect our foolhardy endeavor to be embraced or understood by those that govern us

 

Be the wing, Bill. 


   
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echjh avatar
(@echjh)
Eminent Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 43
 
As you say, based on the recent experience it definitely seems that the FAA has changed their stance on 337 Field Approvals. However, as usual there are several ways things that have to be interpreted to get to the core issue, and so I'm planning on looking into that. 

First issue for me to check is whether the replacement heat exchanger is actually a Major Repair or Alteration. It doesn't seem to fit the definition as given in Part 43 Appendix A of the CFRs, so perhaps a 337 approval is not part of the solution anyway. 
Secondly, although the GL is back in production, before getting the replacement part from Brent P. I checked with Waco regarding sourcing the exhaust system from them; their response was that they would only sell complete systems (at $2500) but also they don't have any to sell and don't expect to. If they are willing to put this on paper you might be able to show the heat exchanger is a part no longer available and therefore replacement under AC-23-27 is still appropriate. 
Another thought is whether the new GL's from Waco are also subject to the repetitive 25-hour AD. This would be a pretty poor way for them to sell new airplanes. However if they avoided that by using a replacement heat exchanger different from the original GL factory parts how did they get that approved? I think there may have been a later factory part that is not subject to the AD, so perhaps they are using that although that's not much help if they aren't in production anyways. However, if Waco have a new design part then by the strict ruling currently taken by our local FSDO this would have required whatever part they are using to be STC'd by showing that the replacement can (and I quote)  "comply with the engine manufacture specifications of exhaust flow, engine operation testing, vibration testing, noise testing, corrosion, ICA s (Instructions for Continued Airworthiness) research over a period of time, drawings, flight testing, etc."  
 So if Waco got approval to use a non-original replacement part my question would be how did they get it approved?  If they got a new STC I suspect that the process was not as elaborate as that described above which seems more appropriate for re-engining a Gulfstream G3...
Finally, even if we wanted to follow the FSDO's current interpretation and requirement to the letter to get an STC, I'm interested in what would actually be required to show compliance. There may well be multiple ways to achieve this - e.g. exhaust flow comparisons via COMSOL (fluid dynamics) analysis, vibration testing via micro-transducers (but would Lycoming have a baseline GL installation to compare with ??), noise (pretty easy to measure, but against what baseline?), corrosion (maybe easiest - the new part is aircraft grade certified Type 321 material using certified/approved welding standards as per several current production aircraft exhaust systems), the ICA already exists, as do the engineering drawings. Flight testing could be the only 'fun' part!
So while I'm not proposing any of this as the way forward at the moment, there are clearly some avenues to investigate. Meanwhile it's getting to be the warmer part of the year anyway which provides a window of opportunity to chase this further before needing the snowmobile suits.
Input and suggestions welcomed - particularly positive ones!
Regards
Chris H

   
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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
 
Glad to be a dinosaur. 
Retiring after 35 years of looking out the front window of an airliner at 35,000 feet next September. 
A close friend and I are taking his 1939 Open Cockpit UPF Waco, my Lakes and our ladies on a trip to kill dinosaur juice. The plan is FLA to Maine to Seattle to San Diego and back in about 6-8 weeks. No schedule, no timing, no more than 2 legs a day, no rain or clouds, just enjoying the countryside. 
If that makes me a dinosaur, then call me a T-Rex. 
    ----Red GL in N FLA----
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 10, 2016, at 23:34, 'Mike Danielle' mikeda@centurylink.net [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I am sadly in agreement with Bill.  Enjoy it while we can lads.  We re all dinosaurs.

 

Ranger Mike

 

From: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com [mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 3:12 PM
To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [greatlakesbiplane] Re: Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

 

 

I wouldn't expect the Feds to go out of their way to help. Our type of aviating creates big headaches in trying to squeeze drones into the system. From a commercial use standpoint it'd be easier droning packages to customers if our Great Lakes were all hangar queens. We are very fortunate to be around in the time of Birdmen. A little more than a century before it was a lofty dream. In the future, piloting as we know it will be a nostalgic notion. Flight for no other reason than flight's sake, to be like a bird, to dance on the wind, to be a Great Lakes driver is something special, but don't expect our foolhardy endeavor to be embraced or understood by those that govern us

 

Be the wing, Bill. 


   
ReplyQuote
Joe Preston avatar
(@joe-preston)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1143
 

September is probably not the best time to venture too far North in an open cockpit airplane, but I will look forward to seeing the four of you at N40 sometime soon.

 

--

Joe

 

 

 

From: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com [mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 6:49 AM
To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [greatlakesbiplane] Re: Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

 

 

Glad to be a dinosaur. 

 

Retiring after 35 years of looking out the front window of an airliner at 35,000 feet next September. 

 

A close friend and I are taking his 1939 Open Cockpit UPF Waco, my Lakes and our ladies on a trip to kill dinosaur juice. The plan is FLA to Maine to Seattle to San Diego and back in about 6-8 weeks. No schedule, no timing, no more than
2 legs a day, no rain or clouds, just enjoying the countryside. 

 

If that makes me a dinosaur, then call me a T-Rex. 

 

    ----Red GL in N FLA----

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 10, 2016, at 23:34, 'Mike Danielle'
mikeda@centurylink.net [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I am sadly in agreement with Bill.  Enjoy it while we can lads.  We re all dinosaurs.

 

Ranger Mike

 

From:
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com [mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 3:12 PM
To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [greatlakesbiplane] Re: Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

 

 

I wouldn't expect the Feds to go out of their way to help. Our type of aviating creates big headaches in trying to squeeze drones into the system. From a commercial use standpoint it'd be easier droning packages to customers if our Great Lakes were all hangar
queens. We are very fortunate to be around in the time of Birdmen. A little more than a century before it was a lofty dream. In the future, piloting as we know it will be a nostalgic notion. Flight for no other reason than flight's sake, to be like a bird,
to dance on the wind, to be a Great Lakes driver is something special, but don't expect our foolhardy endeavor to be embraced or understood by those that govern us

 

Be the wing, Bill. 


   
ReplyQuote
John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
 
You can be T-rex with those tiny little arms if you want, I'll be T-dactyl (Pterodactyl) and fly top cover for you.  Since the dawn of time, there's been but a few ticks of the second hand where man can do as we do. Pretty special to be a dinosaur, don't you think?

 I like your retirement plan, Captain Rex.

Be the wing, Red GL in NJ

   
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psrother avatar
(@psrother)
Estimable Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 194
 

I am surprised that you got that response from WACO on the exhaust system that they are not selling any. I have bought LG struts, fuel valves and the exhaust hangers (which they had to pull from a exhaust kit) from them. Peter and the parts people have been always helpful in my requests.

 

As far as WACO certifying the new exhaust, they did far more than that during the re-certification of the aircraft. They moved the pilots seat, a new main beam design, new instrument panel and a new horizontal Stab spar to name a few. All was done as part of the Type Certificate for the GL, and it took a large engineering effort to complete. The WACO blog discussed the process of the re-certification they went through.

 

If you decide to go with the STC route and use your GL as a test bed, the FAA will require you to operate under an special airworthiness certificate in the experimental "Research and development" category.


   
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echjh avatar
(@echjh)
Eminent Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 43
 
Continuing the search for a solution to the heat-exchanger AD issue, is there some place where I can find the engineering drawing for the offending original part #50146 (Cockpit Heater System)? 

I'm told that being able to show this for comparison to the replacement part drawing could be helpful in getting approval for the installation...
Thanks
Chris H

   
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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
 
Have you folks thought I'd using a 12 volt heated seat cushion?
Brent O

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 12, 2016, at 12:32, chjh@pacbell.net [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Continuing the search for a solution to the heat-exchanger AD issue, is there some place where I can find the engineering drawing for the offending original part #50146 (Cockpit Heater System)? 

I'm told that being able to show this for comparison to the replacement part drawing could be helpful in getting approval for the installation...
Thanks
Chris H

   
ReplyQuote
John Duncan avatar
(@john-duncan)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 174
 

Great idea, Brent. . . .

Heated gloves also.
JD

To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
From: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:38:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [greatlakesbiplane] Re: Need Heater for Lycoming E2A 140HP

 

Have you folks thought I'd using a 12 volt heated seat cushion?
Brent O

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 12, 2016, at 12:32, chjh@pacbell.net [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Continuing the search for a solution to the heat-exchanger AD issue, is there some place where I can find the engineering drawing for the offending original part #50146 (Cockpit Heater System)? 

I'm told that being able to show this for comparison to the replacement part drawing could be helpful in getting approval for the installation...
Thanks
Chris H


   
ReplyQuote
yalemosk avatar
(@yalemosk)
Eminent Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 48
 

Better yet!  Move to Florida
 
Miami Red
 
In a message dated 4/12/2016 12:39:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

Have you folks thought I'd using a 12 volt heated seat cushion?
Brent O

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 12, 2016, at 12:32, chjh@pacbell.net [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

 

Continuing the search for a solution to the heat-exchanger AD issue, is
there some place where I can find the engineering drawing for the offending
original part #50146 (Cockpit Heater System)? 

I'm told that being able to show this for comparison to the replacement
part drawing could be helpful in getting approval for the
installation...
Thanks
Chris H


   
ReplyQuote
psrother avatar
(@psrother)
Estimable Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 194
 
Or like Bill, wear a snowmobile suit and a furry hat. I admit that I am getting to an age once the temps go below 60 degrees, I tend to only fly airplanes with doors.........

   
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dana.labounty avatar
(@dana-labounty)
Estimable Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 197
 

Hey all,

    First I will qualify this by saying that I was fortunate enough to get the last Dawley heat exchange that Harvey had left from years back. If anyone out there has the same unit installed I sure could use some guidance on what to bring my friendly FAA guys to get the stamp of approval. Second part is, in my past I was an avid cold climate motorcycle enthusiast and I remember the tour bike guys had electric vest and other such garb. Perhaps not as elegant a solution but something I would consider should the Dawley route not prove fruitful. Regards, D.LaBounty


   
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natalewilliam avatar
(@natalewilliam)
New Member
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 4
 
hi dana my name is bill natale and I own GL 3502L sv 792 and I have that same dawldy heater that I also bought from Harvey swack I am an IA so all I did was make out a 337 and used the reference material that Harvey included with the heater and I have not heard back from the faa so that means there was no problem case closed let me know if I can be of help-bill natale

   
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Joe Preston avatar
(@joe-preston)
Noble Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 1143
 
Hi Bill,
Why don't you post a copy of the 337 to the Yahoo website so everyone can use it that needs to?
Joe

Sent from my iPad Mini

On Apr 13, 2016, at 18:09, natalewilliam@yahoo.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

hi dana my name is bill natale and I own GL 3502L sv 792 and I have that same dawldy heater that I also bought from Harvey swack I am an IA so all I did was make out a 337 and used the reference material that Harvey included with the heater and I have not
heard back from the faa so that means there was no problem case closed let me know if I can be of help-bill natale


   
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