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High and Hot Engine Operation

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John Hofmann avatar
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Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?? I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.? After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine whether I used the manufacturer hot start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic. ?

Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.? Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.? Mid way up it would run but it was still finicky.? Higher power settings worked great both in air and on ground.
I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
Ron

   
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John Hofmann avatar
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Topic starter  
Ron-
     Let me give you some technique advice from the Red GL in N FLA (read hot WX).
     When it goes above 75F and I'm going to hot start. I run the fuel pump for 3-4 seconds with the throttle cracked about 3/4" and the mixture full rich. (Just like on a cold start.). Then put the throttle full forward and mixture to cutoff. Crank until
it catches, then mixture rich and throttle back to 1000-1200 RPM. 
Then run the electric fuel pump for about 30 seconds. It should run smooth after 30 seconds if not run the fuel pump for about another 15 seconds. 
      The problem is that when the engine sits in the heat, the fuel in the injector lines from the spider divider to the injector nozzles boils the fuel out of the lines into the cylinders. This is why the engine starts momentarily and then dies or tries
to. By running the electric fuel pump you replace the air in the lines with cool fuel. 
      Let me know if this solves your issue. I've been thru 3 different fuel injector servos and it works for all of them. Enjoy the warm weather flying. 
    ----Red GL in N FLA---
Sent from my iPhone

On May 6, 2017, at 22:26, Ron Cardwell cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?  I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.  After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine whether I used the manufacturer hot
start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic.  

Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.  Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.  Mid way up it would run but it was still finicky.  Higher power settings worked
great both in air and on ground.
I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
Ron

   
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John Hofmann avatar
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Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Did you have the boost pump on?
Sounds like vapor lock. 
Having the boost pump on will help reduce the tendencies. 
Are all fuel lines firewall forward firesleeved?
30 seconds at 1500rpm or so should push enough fuel through the lines to cool them down and reduce vapor lock, but in hot wx it may be necessary to operate with the fuel pump on for a while. 
Cory Thompson
1V6
Fremont Co Airport
Colorado 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 6, 2017, at 8:26 PM, Ron Cardwell cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?  I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.  After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine whether I used the manufacturer hot start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic.  

Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.  Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.  Mid way up it would run but it was still finicky.  Higher power settings worked great both in air and on ground.
I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
Ron

   
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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
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Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Thanks so much guys!? The prime/throttle forward/mixture off was what got it started finally.? I'll try the fuel pump tricks next time.? Thanks again!

Ron

On May 6, 2017 9:38 PM, "Jeff Edwards jeffed6161@hotmail.com [greatlakesbiplane]" <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

Ron-
? ? ?Let me give you some technique advice from the Red GL in N FLA (read hot WX).
? ? ?When it goes above 75F and I'm going to hot start. I run the fuel pump for 3-4 seconds with the throttle cracked about 3/4" and the mixture full rich. (Just like on a cold start.). Then put the throttle full forward and mixture to cutoff. Crank until
it catches, then mixture rich and throttle back to 1000-1200 RPM.?
Then run the electric fuel pump for about 30 seconds. It should run smooth after 30 seconds if not run the fuel pump for about another 15 seconds.?
? ? ? The problem is that when the engine sits in the heat, the fuel in the injector lines from the spider divider to the injector nozzles boils the fuel out of the lines into the cylinders. This is why the engine starts momentarily and then dies or tries
to. By running the electric fuel pump you replace the air in the lines with cool fuel.?
? ? ? Let me know if this solves your issue. I've been thru 3 different fuel injector servos and it works for all of them. Enjoy the warm weather flying.?
? ? ----Red GL in N FLA---
Sent from my iPhone
On May 6, 2017, at 22:26, Ron Cardwell cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?

Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?? I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.? After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine whether I used the manufacturer hot
start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic. ?

Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.? Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.? Mid way up it would run but it was still finicky.? Higher power settings worked
great both in air and on ground.
I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
Ron


   
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John Hofmann avatar
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Posts: 7241
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ron try this procedure that I learned while flying my 1978 gl from west coast to the east first start of the day everything full forward hit the boost pump say one thousand one to one thousand three throttle right back and crack about 1/8 of an inch will start right up now here the story gets different after the engine is hot from flying say for gas this is starting procedure that I use and has worked flawlessly every time no boost pump throttle cracked 1/8 of an inch and mixture right back all the to the off position prop full fwd start to crank engine and it will start very quickly soon as it starts to run push the mixture to full rich works every time for me even if I start up and run for a few minutes and taxi and get gas then I use the hot start method with the mixture right back and will start very quickly try this I think you will be amazed at how quickly it will start I had to learn this method non my first gas stop in California on my way home with the airplane thank god the guy that gave me the jump on the battery knew this procedure and passed it on to me good luck-bill natale
On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:42 AM, "Ron Cardwell cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane]" wrote:
 

Thanks so much guys!  The prime/throttle forward/mixture off was what got it started finally.  I'll try the fuel pump tricks next time.  Thanks again!

Ron

On May 6, 2017 9:38 PM, "Jeff Edwards jeffed6161@hotmail.com [greatlakesbiplane]" <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Ron-
     Let me give you some technique advice from the Red GL in N FLA (read hot WX).
     When it goes above 75F and I'm going to hot start. I run the fuel pump for 3-4 seconds with the throttle cracked about 3/4" and the mixture full rich. (Just like on a cold start.). Then put the throttle full forward and mixture to cutoff. Crank until
it catches, then mixture rich and throttle back to 1000-1200 RPM. 
Then run the electric fuel pump for about 30 seconds. It should run smooth after 30 seconds if not run the fuel pump for about another 15 seconds. 
      The problem is that when the engine sits in the heat, the fuel in the injector lines from the spider divider to the injector nozzles boils the fuel out of the lines into the cylinders. This is why the engine starts momentarily and then dies or tries
to. By running the electric fuel pump you replace the air in the lines with cool fuel. 
      Let me know if this solves your issue. I've been thru 3 different fuel injector servos and it works for all of them. Enjoy the warm weather flying. 
    ----Red GL in N FLA---
Sent from my iPhone
On May 6, 2017, at 22:26, Ron Cardwell cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?  I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.  After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine whether I used the manufacturer hot
start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic.  

Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.  Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.  Mid way up it would run but it was still finicky.  Higher power settings worked
great both in air and on ground.
I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
Ron

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John Hofmann avatar
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Topic starter  
Hey Ron, Jeff and Cory are spot on with vaporizing the fuel out of the injector lines. Jeff has a lot more experience with warm Wx hot starts than most of us. As you might have learned, you don't get a lot of cranking time from the little Concorde or scooter battery to figure things out. I'm running fine wire plugs so my experiences might be different. If my oil temp needle has any life whatsoever I use "my" hot start procedure. Throttle full forward, mixture to cut off, crank. When she lights, mixture rich, throttle to idle.The Lycoming catches right away but might protest the heat with an occasional missed beat during taxi. Hot starts for me go off without a hitch without the need for boost but the boost idea certainly makes sense to clear the vapor and cool the lines. 

Be the wing, Bill

   
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John Hofmann avatar
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 7241
Topic starter  

Ron,

 

Agree.? Two other things to do and check on. Make sure the fuel feed line from the Servo to the spider has the Fire Sleeve. That will help out a little. I would not put fire sleeve on the injector lines. Will need to inspect those on a 100hr basis due to AD/SB.

 

Also when you finish your flight, turn it into the wind for parking. Some operators at Contests open the cowl doors to let the heat escape. This may help out between students.

 

JST

 

From: ?
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2017 6:24 AM
To: ?
Subject: Re: [greatlakesbiplane] High and Hot Engine Operation

 

 

Hey Ron, Jeff and Cory are spot on with vaporizing the fuel out of the injector lines. Jeff has a lot more experience with warm Wx hot starts than most of us. As you might have learned, you don't get a lot of cranking time from the little Concorde or scooter battery to figure things out. I'm running fine wire plugs so my experiences might be different. If my oil temp needle has any life whatsoever I use "my" hot start procedure. Throttle full forward, mixture to cut off, crank. When she lights, mixture rich, throttle to idle.The Lycoming catches right away but might protest the heat with an occasional missed beat during taxi. Hot starts for me go off without a hitch without the need for boost but the boost idea certainly makes sense to clear the vapor and cool the lines. 

 

Be the wing, Bill


   
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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 7241
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    Hey Bill did EXACTLY ! the same as you out lined since forever   works perfect .  rgds Archie

     

    Sent from
    Mail for Windows 10

     

    From: 'Jamie Treat' jamietreat@q.com [greatlakesbiplane]
    Sent: Sunday, May 7, 2017 10:37 AM
    To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [greatlakesbiplane] High and Hot Engine Operation

     

     

    Ron,

     

    Agree.  Two other things to do and check on. Make sure the fuel feed line from the Servo to the spider has the Fire Sleeve. That will help out a little. I would not put fire sleeve on the injector lines. Will
    need to inspect those on a 100hr basis due to AD/SB.

     

    Also when you finish your flight, turn it into the wind for parking. Some operators at Contests open the cowl doors to let the heat escape. This may help out between students.

     

    JST

     

    From:  
    Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2017 6:24 AM
    To:  
    Subject: Re: [greatlakesbiplane] High and Hot Engine Operation

     

     

    Hey Ron, Jeff and Cory are spot on with vaporizing the fuel out of the injector lines. Jeff has a lot more experience with warm Wx hot starts than most of us. As you might have learned, you don't get a lot of cranking time from the little Concorde or scooter
    battery to figure things out. I'm running fine wire plugs so my experiences might be different. If my oil temp needle has any life whatsoever I use "my" hot start procedure. Throttle full forward, mixture to cut off, crank. When she lights, mixture rich, throttle
    to idle.The Lycoming catches right away but might protest the heat with an occasional missed beat during taxi. Hot starts for me go off without a hitch without the need for boost but the boost idea certainly makes sense to clear the vapor and cool the lines. 

     

    Be the wing, Bill

     


       
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    John Duncan avatar
    (@john-duncan)
    Estimable Member
    Joined: 19 years ago
    Posts: 174
     

    Hello Ron,

    The problem of hard starting can be easily dealt with.  The Owners Manual, page 1-3 gives the procedure for both a Cold and Hot engine starting.  The only addition that I recommend is: 
    Cold engine, prime with boost pump until 8.0-8.5 GPH is indicated on the fuel flow meter;  
    Hot engine,  make CERTAIN that the mixture is in idle cutoff and run the boost pump for a minimum of 30 seconds.  The fuel flow indicator should indicate no fuel flow.  DO NOT PRIME a hot engine, just start cranking it over after circulating cool
    fuel and after it fires, advance the mixture.  
    For ground operation, you will find a sweet spot for the mixture control where the engine runs smoothly. . . .usually approximately halfway between idle cutoff and full rich. 
    After engine shutdown, I recommend heading into the wind and opening the oil access door on the upper cowl to aid in cooling.  
    If there is someone on the ground to help with passenger ingress/egress, you might also consider not shutting the engine down.  Be careful!!!!
    Kindest regards,
    John Duncan
    Great Lakes Aircraft Company  
     

    On May 6, 2017, at 8:26 PM, Ron Cardwell
    cardwell.ron@gmail.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Do all AEIO-360 engines get temperamental when it gets hot?  I was doing demo flights out of BJC today and the temperature was in the 80s.  After about the third flight it was a nightmare to start the engine
    whether I used the manufacturer hot start procedure or one I picked up from a local mechanic.  

    Then once the engine was started it didn't like to stay running at idle below 1200-1500 rpm.  Mixture position didn't seem to make too terribly much difference.  Mid way up it would run but it was still
    finicky.  Higher power settings worked great both in air and on ground.
    I was pretty frustrated by the end of the day!
    Ron


       
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