Advise on repair
 
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Advise on repair

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John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Hi,

?Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer than others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from others.
?I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use of it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over. Yes I know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings and that is a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad and upset and just want my plane back ;<
?By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited. Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all of the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment seems to be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the runway. A visible inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but obviously lots to learn in days ahead.
?So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened to other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained mechanical won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and reports I am given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies the righting of the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club insurance item I want to make sure I am aware of any special things to look at during the assessment
?Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that she is well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than the once every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later and frankly one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a she). right now I just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead and don't let anything get missed.
Dave

   
Quote
dale.faust avatar
(@dale-faust)
Eminent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 26
 

Dave: I would only offer two thoughts.
One: the fact that she went over easy/slow has NO bearing on the possible
crankshaft damage. I would require a full inspection of the crank even though
the Lycoming SB does not require it. Irrespective of the time since last
overhaul bite the bullet and do a full overhaul now. My opinion is you will
recover the cost either when you sell her or by a nice carefree long dance with
her.
Two: Remove the top wings from the airplane and place them on a flat
surface. The tension on the wires can mask a damaged spar very easily. If you
allow the insurance company to simply repair the damaged areas in place you may
later discover there was a hidden problem. If possible I would do a borescope
inspection of both spars in each wing. Carefully inspect  the top, the
bottom, the front and rear faces for signs of distress. If a borescope isn't an
option remember inspection plates are your friend... an ugly friend but one that
beats the he!! out of a broken spar.
 
The only other thing I can offer is sympathy. It's going to be a long
process to get her back to 100% but it's certainly possible. I'll go out on a
limb and say you've lost most of the 2016 summer flying while this is remedied.
Dale
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:35:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Hi,

 Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer than
others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from others.
 I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use of
it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over. Yes I
know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings and that is
a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad and upset and
just want my plane back ;<
 By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited.
Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all of
the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment seems to
be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the runway. A visible
inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but obviously lots to learn in
days ahead.
 So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened to
other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained mechanical
won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and reports I am
given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies the righting of
the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club insurance item I want
to make sure I am aware of any special things to look at during the
assessment
 Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that she is
well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than the once
every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later and frankly
one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a she). right now I
just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead and don't let anything
get missed.
Dave


   
ReplyQuote
John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Dale,

?Thanks!?
?I certainly intend a full engine teardown
?I do want to clarify somethingand understand your statement on the wings. To be clear the plane did NOT go on her back. She simply forgot she was a taildragger and fell on her spinner and slid to a stop as if she was a tricycle gear plane.. just with a very expensive nose wheel. I will do a full boroscope but in terms of removing the wings. What is the likely cause for a cracked spar? Do the g-forces get that high on a nose over? Or is that more in case she actually ended on her back (which she did not)

?Dave

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Qualitygps@aol.com [greatlakesbiplane] <greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

?


Dave: I would only offer two thoughts.

One: the fact that she went over easy/slow has NO bearing on the possible
crankshaft damage. I would require a full inspection of the crank even though
the Lycoming SB does not require it. Irrespective of the time since last
overhaul bite the bullet and do a full overhaul now. My opinion is you will
recover the cost either when you sell her or by a nice carefree long dance with
her.
Two: Remove the top wings from the airplane and place them on a flat
surface. The tension on the wires can mask a damaged spar very easily. If you
allow the insurance company to simply repair the damaged areas in place you may
later discover there was a hidden problem. If possible I would do a borescope
inspection of both spars in each wing. Carefully inspect? the top, the
bottom, the front and rear faces for signs of distress. If a borescope isn't an
option remember inspection plates are your friend... an ugly friend but one that
beats the he!! out of a broken spar.
?
The only other thing I can offer is sympathy. It's going to be a long
process to get her back to 100% but it's certainly possible. I'll go out on a
limb and say you've lost most of the 2016 summer flying while this is remedied.
Dale
?
?
?
?
?
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:35:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

?

Hi,

?Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer than
others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from others.
?I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use of
it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over. Yes I
know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings and that is
a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad and upset and
just want my plane back ;<
?By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited.
Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all of
the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment seems to
be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the runway. A visible
inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but obviously lots to learn in
days ahead.
?So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened to
other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained mechanical
won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and reports I am
given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies the righting of
the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club insurance item I want
to make sure I am aware of any special things to look at during the
assessment
?Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that she is
well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than the once
every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later and frankly
one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a she). right now I
just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead and don't let anything
get missed.
Dave


   
ReplyQuote
dale.faust avatar
(@dale-faust)
Eminent Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 26
 

Nope I misunderstood how far over she went. I thought she was on the top
side of the nose and the wingtips. If none of the wings touched the ground I
would inspect the attach points, and the N strut attaches only. You should be
good to go.
Dale
 
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:58:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Dale,

 Thanks! 
 I certainly intend a full engine teardown
 I do want to clarify somethingand understand your statement on the
wings. To be clear the plane did NOT go on her back. She simply forgot she was
a taildragger and fell on her spinner and slid to a stop as if she was a
tricycle gear plane.. just with a very expensive nose wheel. I will do a full
boroscope but in terms of removing the wings. What is the likely cause for a
cracked spar? Do the g-forces get that high on a nose over? Or is that more in
case she actually ended on her back (which she did not)

 Dave

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Qualitygps@aol.com [greatlakesbiplane]
<greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Dave: I would only offer two
thoughts.

One: the fact that she went over easy/slow has NO bearing on the
possible crankshaft damage. I would require a full inspection of the crank
even though the Lycoming SB does not require it. Irrespective of the time
since last overhaul bite the bullet and do a full overhaul now. My opinion
is you will recover the cost either when you sell her or by a nice carefree
long dance with her.
Two: Remove the top wings from the airplane and place them on a flat
surface. The tension on the wires can mask a damaged spar very easily. If
you allow the insurance company to simply repair the damaged areas in place
you may later discover there was a hidden problem. If possible I would do a
borescope inspection of both spars in each wing. Carefully inspect  the
top, the bottom, the front and rear faces for signs of distress. If a
borescope isn't an option remember inspection plates are your friend... an
ugly friend but one that beats the he!! out of a broken spar.
 
The only other thing I can offer is sympathy. It's going to be a long
process to get her back to 100% but it's certainly possible. I'll go out on
a limb and say you've lost most of the 2016 summer flying while this is
remedied.
Dale
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:35:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Hi,

 Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer
than others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from
others.
 I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use
of it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over.
Yes I know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings
and that is a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad
and upset and just want my plane back ;<
 By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited.
Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all
of the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment
seems to be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the
runway. A visible inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but
obviously lots to learn in days ahead.
 So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened
to other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained
mechanical won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and
reports I am given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies
the righting of the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club
insurance item I want to make sure I am aware of any special things to
look at during the assessment
 Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that
she is well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than
the once every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later
and frankly one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a
she). right now I just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead
and don't let anything get missed.
Dave


   
ReplyQuote
John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Definitely look at the attach points. The wings will have a good deal
of inertia, and the decelerative forces when coming to a sudden stop
will transfer into the root fittings, and spar.

One of the loading conditions in design is, in fact, forward 'thrust'
of the wings, but even in a slow nose-over, the loads can be pretty
high; I think higher than the design condition. I would suggest
looking at the rear spar roots for cracking where tension loads would
be expected, and the bolts would see pullout forces.

I have a doctorate in structural engineering, but in bridges, not
aircraft, so if anyone more qualified would like to jump in (and
possibly correct any wrong assumptions I've made), please do so.

So sorry for the incident. Hope it all works out well.

On 2/14/16, Qualitygps@aol.com [greatlakesbiplane]
<greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Nope I misunderstood how far over she went. I thought she was on the top
> side of the nose and the wingtips. If none of the wings touched the ground I
>
> would inspect the attach points, and the N strut attaches only. You should
> be good to go.
> Dale
>
>
> In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:58:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
>
>
>
> Dale,
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> I certainly intend a full engine teardown
>
>
> I do want to clarify somethingand understand your statement on the wings.
> To be clear the plane did NOT go on her back. She simply forgot she was a
> taildragger and fell on her spinner and slid to a stop as if she was a
> tricycle gear plane.. just with a very expensive nose wheel. I will do a
> full
> boroscope but in terms of removing the wings. What is the likely cause for a
>
> cracked spar? Do the g-forces get that high on a nose over? Or is that more
>
> in case she actually ended on her back (which she did not)
>
>
>
> Dave
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, _Qualitygps@aol.com_
> (mailto:Qualitygps@aol.com) [greatlakesbiplane]
> <_greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com_
> (mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com) > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave: I would only offer two thoughts.
> One: the fact that she went over easy/slow has NO bearing on the possible
> crankshaft damage. I would require a full inspection of the crank even
> though the Lycoming SB does not require it. Irrespective of the time since
> last
> overhaul bite the bullet and do a full overhaul now. My opinion is you
> will recover the cost either when you sell her or by a nice carefree long
> dance with her.
> Two: Remove the top wings from the airplane and place them on a flat
> surface. The tension on the wires can mask a damaged spar very easily. If
> you
> allow the insurance company to simply repair the damaged areas in place you
>
> may later discover there was a hidden problem. If possible I would do a
> borescope inspection of both spars in each wing. Carefully inspect the
> top,
> the bottom, the front and rear faces for signs of distress. If a borescope
>
> isn't an option remember inspection plates are your friend... an ugly
> friend
> but one that beats the he!! out of a broken spar.
>
> The only other thing I can offer is sympathy. It's going to be a long
> process to get her back to 100% but it's certainly possible. I'll go out on
> a
> limb and say you've lost most of the 2016 summer flying while this is
> remedied.
> Dale
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:35:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> _greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com_
> (mailto:greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com)
> writes:
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer than others
> and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from others.
>
>
> I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use of it to
> share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over. Yes I know
>
> there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings and that is a
>
> discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad and upset and
> just want my plane back ;<
>
>
> By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited. Nothing
> touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all of the
> body
> appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment seems to be the
>
> powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the runway. A visible
> inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but obviously lots to learn in
>
> days ahead.
>
>
> So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened to other
> GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained mechanical won't
>
> spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and reports I am given
>
> are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies the righting of the
> plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club insurance item I want to
>
> make sure I am aware of any special things to look at during the
> assessment
>
>
> Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that she is well
> treated because I do feel she should get more attention than the once every
>
> week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later and frankly one I
>
> can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a she). right now I
> just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead and don't let
> anything
> get missed.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


   
ReplyQuote
gtg15751 avatar
(@gtg15751)
Reputable Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 279
 
Biplanes & wingtips touching should have very thorough crack inspection as forces carry via N strut to all wings.
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Qualitygps@aol.com [greatlakesbiplane]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 13:01
To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Reply To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [greatlakesbiplane] Advise on repair

 


Nope I misunderstood how far over she went. I thought she was on the top
side of the nose and the wingtips. If none of the wings touched the ground I
would inspect the attach points, and the N strut attaches only. You should be
good to go.

Dale
 
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:58:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Dale,

 Thanks! 
 I certainly intend a full engine teardown
 I do want to clarify somethingand understand your statement on the
wings. To be clear the plane did NOT go on her back. She simply forgot she was
a taildragger and fell on her spinner and slid to a stop as if she was a
tricycle gear plane.. just with a very expensive nose wheel. I will do a full
boroscope but in terms of removing the wings. What is the likely cause for a
cracked spar? Do the g-forces get that high on a nose over? Or is that more in
case she actually ended on her back (which she did not)

 Dave

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Qualitygps@aol.com [greatlakesbiplane]
<greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Dave: I would only offer two
thoughts.

One: the fact that she went over easy/slow has NO bearing on the
possible crankshaft damage. I would require a full inspection of the crank
even though the Lycoming SB does not require it. Irrespective of the time
since last overhaul bite the bullet and do a full overhaul now. My opinion
is you will recover the cost either when you sell her or by a nice carefree
long dance with her.
Two: Remove the top wings from the airplane and place them on a flat
surface. The tension on the wires can mask a damaged spar very easily. If
you allow the insurance company to simply repair the damaged areas in place
you may later discover there was a hidden problem. If possible I would do a
borescope inspection of both spars in each wing. Carefully inspect  the
top, the bottom, the front and rear faces for signs of distress. If a
borescope isn't an option remember inspection plates are your friend... an
ugly friend but one that beats the he!! out of a broken spar.
 
The only other thing I can offer is sympathy. It's going to be a long
process to get her back to 100% but it's certainly possible. I'll go out on
a limb and say you've lost most of the 2016 summer flying while this is
remedied.
Dale
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/14/2016 12:35:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Hi,

 Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer
than others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from
others.
 I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use
of it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over.
Yes I know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings
and that is a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad
and upset and just want my plane back ;<
 By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited.
Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all
of the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment
seems to be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the
runway. A visible inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but
obviously lots to learn in days ahead.
 So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened
to other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained
mechanical won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and
reports I am given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies
the righting of the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club
insurance item I want to make sure I am aware of any special things to
look at during the assessment
 Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that
she is well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than
the once every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later
and frankly one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a
she). right now I just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead
and don't let anything get missed.
Dave


   
ReplyQuote
John Duncan avatar
(@john-duncan)
Estimable Member
Joined: 19 years ago
Posts: 174
 

Hello Dave,

I am sorry to hear of the damage to your Great Lakes.  It sounds as if she might not be hurt too badly.
From your narrative, it appears that the airplane ended on its nose.  Make certain that the engine mount is carefully inspected, especially the web clusters at the firewall attach points.  
If the prop blades are not bent beyond limits, they can be straightened and reused.  Utilize the services of a reputable prop shop.  
If the crankshaft is not bent, it can also be yellow-tagged.  I recommend that you have the engine overhauled.
The wing & landing gear attach points, and all wing struts should be carefully inspected.  Also, make certain that the landing gear tracks straight. 
I recommend careful inspection of the wing spars near the wing tips. 
Overall, the Great Lakes is a tough airframe and will tolerate substantial use/abuse.  But, like all things mechanical, it must be properly cared for.
Waco Classic Aircraft now has replacement airframe parts.  Call (269) 565-1000 and speak to Peter Bowers or Carl Dye. 

We have recently repaired/rebuilt an airframe that was damaged in like manner to yours, and we have two more in line for similiar repair.  We would be pleased to provide a repair estimate if needed.
Kindest regards,

John Duncan

Great Lakes Aircraft
Warner Engines


To: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
From: greatlakesbiplane@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 10:35:34 -0800
Subject: [greatlakesbiplane] Advise on repair

 

Hi,

 Don't post too often as I have much less sage advise to offer than others and I just love/loved flying my plane and learning from others.
 I fly a fairly stock 1978 factory plane and let a club make use of it to share the love. A renter tried to save a landing and nosed over. Yes I know there is a lot to talk about rentals and not saving landings and that is a discussion for later. Right now its more that I am very sad and upset and just want my plane back ;<
 By all appearances it was fairly low speed and fairly limited. Nothing touched other than the prop and spinner and the wingtips and all of the body appear untouched. Only visible damage on initial assessment seems to be the powerplant and scraping of the wheel pants along the runway. A visible inspection seems to imply no firewall damage but obviously lots to learn in days ahead.
 So my question to the group is, since I know this has happened to other GL's is there anything special to look for that a trained mechanical won't spot? Obviously we are looking at a engine teardown and reports I am given are that it was slow and gentle nose over and implies the righting of the plane was gentle as well. But since this is a club insurance item I want to make sure I am aware of any special things to look at during the assessment
 Once I get my baby back I can think about how I can see that she is well treated because I do feel she should get more attention than the once every week or two I can fly her. But that is a debate for later and frankly one I can not quite handle until I have her back (yes its a she). right now I just want to be sure I'm prepared for the weeks ahead and don't let anything get missed.
Dave


   
ReplyQuote
John Hofmann avatar
(@johnhofmann)
Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 7241
Topic starter  
Dave,
Give me a call if you need further advice.
Brent Patty
Phoenix Aircraft Co.
316-321-9192

   
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